This is my response to a Pro-Death comment submitted for this article:
House of Representatives Passes Sweeping Health Reform Bill
http://www.nea.org/home/38621.htm#btnSubmitComment
Original Comment:
“I just wanted to let the NEA president know that because of his arrogant opinion I am no longer a member of the NEA. I went to my local NEA office today and told them I no longer want to be a member of an organization who endorse people support socialist policies/agendas. My political and moral values are more important to me than anything in the world. I am so sorry that I was a member of an association that suppossedly pushes an agenda for kids but supports many political candidates who endorse killing babies in the womb (hypocracy) and makes a mockery of ideals of our founding fathers. By the way NEA make sure you push for print in all the future history books in schools throughout the USA, Im sorry…..the U.S.S.R (United States Socialist Republic), March 21, 2010, the day Constitution was ripped into shreads by the Democratic Party of America.”
My Response:
James 2:15-17 states:
“If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.”
If Jesus were here today he would add health care to food and clothing as it is certainly “things needful to the body”.
The commenter above needs to know that abortion is legal in this country and has been for quite a few decades. Neither President Obama nor the rest of us are baby killers because mere cells are not human. On the other hand, you kill young people because they certainly are human and since I am sure you voted for Bush and his 2 ridiculous wars you had a direct hand in killing innocent young people – you are a murderer IMO. By the way, I did not get any choice about paying taxes for your stupid wars that killed our young people.
I also did not get a choice about Social Security, Medicare, drivers license, motorcycle helmets, increased taxes for booze and cigarettes but I understand that we all pay for these issues and I am willing to pay without calling my country socialist, fascist, totalitarian, etc. You are not a patriot – you are only for this country when you get your way.
You need to know that President Obama was elected by a majority of us to do the job he did on health care. I will not even begin to tell you how enraged I was during both Bush and Reagan presidencies. We the American people DO want national health care in this country and you were told when President Obama was elected and you have been told again with this bill so deal with it! If you are so “pro-life” how can you fight against the millions without health care in this country and the hundreds of thousands of deaths that result for no care or inadequate care? Before CHIPS and this bill you people would not even let us insure kids in this country! You are already involuntarily paying for emergency room health care and will be paying much, much more in the near future unless something is done NOW.
Don’t say you are “pro-life” when you fully exhibit hatred and violence for those that have already certainly been born. You are pro-death and full of darkness and an evil god! Go back to your cave and pray or slice up small animals or whatever you do!
My response…
Well Chrystal, at the risk of sounding too sympathetic for “making their world a better place to go to hell from”, I think it would be great if ‘real’ Christians could take up load for helping the poor and the sick so government would not have to do it. We could probably pay off the national debt quickly if that COULD happen BUT we know that is not happening and probably will not happen in the near future. I suppose if you think that most of the people that the government helps are going to hell anyway then you would be more concerned with how entitlement programs affect your own personal bottom line. My only question to that other commentator is, “Do you REALLY think this thinking reflects the mind of Christ?”
I would also add the 2nd person singular and plural is the same word, you, so you are right not all of the response may apply to ‘you’ personally. However, being from the Deep South, around fundamentalists Christians and being one myself for many years, I know that it is fairly safe to assume that conservative, Republican ideology is very common with those that make similar statements to what you have made. Agreed, not always, but again I would warn against the fallacy of the exception makes the rule”. I have found that many folks I debate with in these situations are fond of being ‘mysterious’ in an attempt to raise the exception makes the rule argument. However, the best way to disprove this tact is for you to simply say what percentage of the time you have voted for a Republican versus a Democrat? Is your ideology closer to Republican or Democrat? If you can give a direct answer to this the mystery can be dispelled and we can have a direct debate as opposed to a guessing game debate. Otherwise, I will just assume that the mystic is simply a cover for what is generally true for fundamentalist Christians and not give any ground on the exception makes the rule (mystery) fallacy. I have no secrets about my ideology and will debate openly with you. I have learned much over the years from those I disagreed with but the trick is, for me, to keep it honest.
Here is another example of the mystery argument I have run into over the years…
Premise: “Abortion should be made illegal under any circumstances” is not primarily and fundamentally a Christian based argument.
Just as there are anti-abortion folks that are atheists, gallop polls suggest fundamentalists are a majority:
“There is a stark difference in views on abortion between Americans who are Christians and those who are not Christians, i.e., those who identify with a non-Christian religion or no religion at all. While just 20% of Christians say abortion should be legal under any circumstances, a majority of non-Christians (54%) and a large segment of those with no religious preference (39%) agree.”
http://www.gallup.com/poll/22222/religion-politics-inform-americans-views-abortion.aspx
and I have never met an atheist against abortion under any circumstances. Can they happen? Sure but when we try to make sense of things we need to pay attention to proportionalities and probabilities if we are to make more informed judgments (also see this http://www.mixermuse.com/blog/2010/01/29/the-greater-good-and-scott-roeder/ and this http://www.mixermuse.com/blog/2009/12/02/fallacies-from-anti-abortionists/ ).
I think the word ‘attack’ is a bit strong but I certainly think your comments made an “accusation” about what you think I supposedly read in the article: “I would like to point out that nowhere in this article did the words, “socialist,” “fascist” or “totalitarian” appear.” I think part of your criticism rested on this premise and I wanted to show how the conclusion fails if the premise is wrong.
I am very familiar with the tact to make this about me and my ASSUMED assault from non-Christians who think they are ‘real’ Christians but that is really a false diversion. The real reason I react emotionally to fundamentalism is because:
1. I think the Bible and Jesus have much, much more to offer than can be found in fundamentalism. I think it is a real shame that hatred (evidenced by why care about all those going to hell) is brought to the fore as “Christian” when that is absolutely opposite to what Jesus was all about! The biggest problem Jesus had in terms of anger was with religious folks of his day that he drove out of the temple with a whip.
2. I find a danger in not vehemently opposing fundamentalism as I think it is really path to everything we say we despise in violent, radical Islamists. Revelations does indicate that the Church will be apostate in the latter days so if you find you are in agreement with the majority of Christian theological and political opinions you probably SHOULD beware! Fundamentalist, conservative Christians are real and present dangers to democracy, separation of Church and State and our young military folks in active war zones (see http://www.mixermuse.com/blog/2010/08/11/regarding-the-proposed-mosque-in-new-york-city/)
However, while I may be emotional I also value a rational, fact-based argument as I think my blog reflects if you read it.
Oh, one correction of “through-a-glass-dimly”; in 1 Corinthians 13 Paul applies it to everyone including himself so I would repeat the admonition to you:
“Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”
Chrystal’s Response…
on August 19, 2010 at 3:53 pm | Reply Chrystal
Wow, Mark…I must have struck a nerve there for you to respond as defensively as you have (again with the “you” generalizations when you don’t know me).
You seem to have a lot of anger inside, and I am so sorry that I seemed to have been attacking you. That was absolutely not my intent.
Though it seems we very much disagree in our views on this issue, one thing we very much agree on — pray is worthless without being accompanied by works of justice, and corporate church has failed there for years. If we as the church would be less selfish and more open to Christ’s mandate to feed, clothe, and tend, there would be no need for government-run programs. Fortunately, I am blessed to run with a group of believers who feel the same way, and who try to put feet on our prayers.
And no, I am not eager to “fly away.” The last chapters of my Bible says that God is coming to live on the earth with man. I do not embrace the escapist mentality that you have referenced.
What breaks my heart is that the statements you made indicate to me that you’ve run head-first into the hyper-judgmental, name-calling, museum Christianity that tries to show you what God has done without showing you who He is. Truly, there’s no excuse for that. I am convinced that some of the things that frustrate you about some individuals in the church (apathy, selfishness, escapism, laziness) frustrate Him too; He’s just not willing to give up on us. And truly (again), when we finally get a taste of the radical love that defines who He is–well, it motivates like nothing else can.
At the risk of provoking an eye-roll from you (because perhaps you’ve heard it before from others hiding behind self-righteous piety), I’m praying for you. Jesus loves you passionately, and God is not intimidated by your anger or frustration. May you see Him for who He is, not for our imperfect, “through-a-glass-dimly” descriptions.
My response to the above…
on August 6, 2010 at 9:19 pm markdart
I just saw this response and as I do not frequent this site so sorry for the delay.
Jesus never talked about “government run programs” (show me, chapter and verse where he talked about “government run programs”). However, he did institute a church – another form of a government run program. Are you suggesting there are no politics in churches? The mission of the church is not just to tell poor and sick folks to “be warmed and filled” by accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. The church is supposed to have “fruits” if it would call itself “Christian”. While some of you suggest this is a “Christian nation” at times when it is convenient for you – at other times you say it is secular. In any case, if the government helps the sick and the poor then in this sense, the mission is the same as the church. You pay tithes to the Church – I pay taxes. I look at my taxes as partially charity work since I do not belong to a church. I am not required to belong to a church but I am required to be a US citizen and I prefer to be a good citizen and make sure my tax dollars are going to “Jesus-like” causes efficiently and effectively. I see this as my obligation as a US citizen. You would do well to consider this:
“What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself. Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith. Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?
James 2: 14-20
If you think faith is all you need to keep from going to Hell and good works are optional you may end up hearing:
“And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
Matthew 7:23
With regard to this comment you made:
“I would like to point out that nowhere in this article did the words, “socialist,” “fascist” or “totalitarian” appear.” Crystal
Christian commentators should actually read and respond to the comments that were made not the comments you imagine were made…here are the actual comments I made:
“By the way, I did not get any choice about paying taxes for your stupid wars that killed our young people. I also did not get a choice about Social Security, Medicare, drivers license, motorcycle helmets, increased taxes for booze and cigarettes but I understand that we all pay for these issues and I am will to pay without calling my country socialist, fascist, totalitarian, etc. You are not a patriot – you are only for this country when you get your way.”
Did you see me make the comment that these words were in the original article? No – you lose credibility when you respond to red-herrings.
Fallacy 1 used by fundes and the right – shift the argument to a position that was not made in order to dismiss it.
Additionally, I took a few minutes to find these comments scattered in this blog:
“Gingrich feels the difference between socialism and freedom down to his core.” Dick Morris (Republican Strategist long before Clinton)
“For liberal “Christians” like Smiley, the old America was a concentration camp where blacks, Indians, women, and homosexuals were persecuted, while the America-to-come–always just a little beyond the horizon–is a Marxist paradise or multicultural university campus in which any human being’s desires are satisfied regardless of the quality of those desires or his willingness to work for them.” Greg Hengler
“the Democrat Party is as it always has been, the party of the four S’s: Slavery, Secession, Segregation and now Socialism” Frances Rice (see my article http://mixermuse.com/blog/2010/03/29/the-democrats-filibustered-the-civil-rights-act-of-1964-and-performed-southern-lynching/ concerning this subject)
I regularly debate and have been called all the words you mention above (and more) by fundamentalists and right-wingers (Have you seen “Liberal Fascism” – I am sure you would like it.)
So these accusations are not uncommon
Fallacy 2 and 3 used by fundes and the right – disassociation and silence –> disassociation – whenever your people make comments that cross the line and cast your views in disfavor you disassociate yourself, i.e. they are not a “true” Christian like we are, their racists remarks do not reflect the “true” tea party, or you could revert to Fallacy 1 and state that they are leftists infiltrators (the “true” racists)…did you know that the KKK was started be Democrats and Leftists according to “Liberal Fascists”? I am from David Duke territory and have argued with him and other KKK’ers and they hate liberals and leftists worse than blacks but I guess you could say they are not the “true” KKK’ers who are really leftists (dissociation again). Silence – Another clever scheme that allows radical statements and code words to be used and when the nut cases come out swinging the instigators back off into the background.
I agree with your comment about going over-board with the cave statement and apologize…it is my own frustration. I have been called a baby killer way too many times and since I have two of my own and love babies more than most adults I know, it really irks me. I also think there are huge contradictions in the “pro-life” movement (see my article http://mixermuse.com/blog/2010/01/29/the-greater-good-and-scott-roeder/)
Fallacy 4 used by fundes and the right – make an opponent’s statement extreme so you can easily dismiss it i.e., I am a baby killer if I believe some forms of abortion are ok.
Finally, I have a few observations about how Christians absolve themselves from responsibility in the world vis-à-vis the next world. If Jesus would have thought like you folks he would have never come into the world. He did not wash his hands of us sinners – according to the Bible he died for us (sinners) while we were still “enemies of the cross”. Why would you act differently if Jesus is your Lord? The way you folks sound – you are eager to get out of here and all too willing to let the rest of us go to eternal Hell (as the other commentator mentioned). I find this to be a psychological mechanism for you to”
1. remain “worldly skeptics”
2. actively try to dismantle “worldly” attempts to help alleviate suffering in this world
3. expiate all guilt (in fact, boast of your “faithfulness” to God in so doing).
This is why others make the association between yourselves and radical Islam. If you want to break the connection that us worldly folks have – do it with more fruits and less hateful talk:
“Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”
1 Corinthians 10:12
Another response to my comments…
on April 1, 2010 at 6:27 pm | Reply thechristianconservative
Nice work Chrystal! I agree, Jesus did not come to be a social worker but “to seek and to save that which was lost”. That’s it, period, case closed.
The “social” gospel is sending more folks to hell these days than ever before. It’s fine to help people with things like clothing, food and health care, but if we’re not sharing the Gospel with these folks, then we’re just making their world a better place to go to hell from.
Response to my comments…
on March 30, 2010 at 7:35 pm | Reply Chrystal
I disagree with your initial statement. I don’t believe the Jesus who sent out His disciples to heal the sick and raise the dead (in Matthew 10:8) would be adding blind reliance on government-run programs to His list of things needful. Rather, I would have to say He would be asking, “where is your faith?”
We don’t serve an evil God. We serve a God who longs for relationship with us and who desires that we depend on Him, not on a hand-out from the government. We serve a God who heals and who responds to people who act in faith.
I agree that our health care system needed an overhaul, but I do not believe that this bill was the answer. I won’t even try to get into the argument over when life begins–men and women much smarter than I am have already long established the supporting evidence for that, and I know that no amount of arguing can change a mind already made up. However, I would like to point out that nowhere in this article did the words, “socialist,” “fascist” or “totalitarian” appear. They’re your words. The greatest danger of the current political trend is the mud-slinging that continues even when the election process ends. The superiority that surfaces in comments referring to “you people” and going back “to your cave” is what is contributing to the erosion of the country, not simply the differences of opinions.